Session Start: Tue Jun 10 20:17:48 2008 20:39:05 hello Heimdallr 20:39:31 hello again 20:39:49 serious issue, at least from my PoV 20:40:13 which is? 20:40:20 i'm not sure how much you are aware of existence of 3rd party programs outside of bots and macros 20:40:52 and which one is the current problem? 20:41:02 current? 20:41:13 oh you are probably refering to AutoIMO? 20:41:19 the one that has you concerned at the moment 20:41:32 it's RoCha!!, not sure if the name tells you anything though 20:41:44 enlighten me 20:42:13 RoCha!! is a popular jRO tool 20:42:18 obviously developed by the japanese 20:42:45 it addresses shortcomings of the regular client 20:43:15 Do you have the tool 20:43:19 and i have to emphasise this, shortcomings that most(newer) MMOs have 20:43:24 i can link you to it 20:43:30 ok 20:43:38 http://rocha.fam.cx 20:43:52 before you have at it, let me list the features though 20:44:05 they include 20:44:39 - visible current/max monster hp (this is a bit quirky as in if the monster goes offscreen, it will assume the monster with full hp again) 20:44:52 ^ i'll elaborate on it later if you are still interested 20:45:02 - visible Bowling Bash grid 20:45:18 - visible party-sp 20:45:40 - map/coordinates for party-members, GPS style 20:46:06 - an exp/hr meter much like AutoIMO itself 20:46:43 - a floating exp indicator when a monster is defeated 20:47:08 - and finally a combat log, which basically just writes stuff that happens into a separate window, much like in Requiem 20:47:24 You hit Poring for 5 damage. blabla 20:47:30 ok, so what is it that has you concerned as a large issue. 20:47:50 that it is a 3rd party program and it is deemed illegal by iRO 20:48:03 nothing else 20:50:53 i'll throw in arguments in favour of it in case you are willing to discuss it :) 20:52:54 I know the fors and againsts 20:53:11 I'll discuss it with the GM team and such. 20:54:56 well, before you do, i'll give you two major fors 20:55:00 or at least they are for in my book 20:56:28 1) it only reads packets and memory, does not send or change any 20:57:51 2) it hooks itself into memory and works on the directdraw layer, so it doesn't modify any part of the game's files 20:58:19 the biggest argument against is just that making exceptions makes some people take additional liberties. 20:58:19 to be precise on the directdraw overlay, much like FRAPS's FPS indicator 20:58:40 there have been no exceptions since AutoIMO though! 20:58:43 except this is directly reading and inserting to game memory. 20:59:00 well, it doesn't directly insert 20:59:09 like i said, it uses the ddraw overlay like FRAPS 20:59:55 the only con i can see is that it's a closedsource exe with limited english support 21:01:18 my point though is that... let's admit it, RO has been around for a long long time, but still lacks UI elements that newer games have 21:01:43 well with that line of thinking, you could have it put a big red arrow over hidden foes as well. 21:01:57 it doesn't do that though 21:02:52 I know that, but it is an extension of those "liberties" that some would take with it. Imo was a fun program, but people worked on it to make a similar project that did more. 21:03:02 and that more made game broken 21:03:15 you mean the autopot feature.... well yea 21:03:25 no I mean the maya purple crap 21:03:51 oh, those were two completely separate programs though 21:04:03 you are refering to Dishonru's RagCE 21:04:17 but yea, he kept posting an updated AutoIMO on his site 21:07:12 Its just in the past whenever we made allowances things got out of hand. 21:07:29 I personally only have an issue with the BB gutter lines being drawn 21:07:39 that's the most celebrated feature though 21:08:00 and for us to support something like this it would have to work always, no monster HP misinformation 21:08:47 well, that comes from no actual monsterhp packet being sent to the clients 21:12:50 I know 21:12:58 you don't have to try to sell me on this. 21:13:24 i can try! 21:13:43 have you seen it in action/did you try it out yet btw? 21:13:51 I already like the community tools. I just don't like the abuse that some tools cause. 21:13:59 I used it over a year ago 21:14:20 didn't have that name though, but did have the hp and sp stuff Session Start: Thu Jun 12 22:26:59 2008 22:27:04 hi heim 22:27:40 hello 22:28:03 any thoughts on the RoCha!! topic yet? 22:29:35 not yet last day or so has been busy not able to have a meeting on it 22:30:00 either way I doubt we will "officially" support it ie linking it and saying GET THIS PROGRAM!!!1! 22:30:24 At best it would be a not-persecuted thing 22:31:03 the later would be awesome 22:31:30 take your time with it, i'll keep harassing you from time to time about it anyway hahha Session Start: Sat Jun 14 08:25:52 2008 08:26:00 morning, heim 08:26:08 any news on RoCha!! issue? 08:45:28 you went to sleep like 2 hours ago didn't you? 08:48:13 yep 08:48:45 some discussion was made. 08:48:53 What is it you want me to say? 08:49:03 What would be your desired outcome of the GM talks? 08:49:10 want? to me? 08:49:17 non-persecution would be awesome already 08:49:39 it'd mean there could be talk about it on iRO Wiki at least 08:50:02 Well likely if tools are just tools that don't hurt others and simply make personal enjoyment then there isn't problems with it. 08:50:44 Right now I don't think it is likely that I will come out and publicly say that this tool is officially endorsed by iRO GM team. 08:51:02 don't need endorsement ofcourse 08:51:05 Because the moment I do someone will mod it to do more. 08:52:05 i have to point out then, the program itself is very cautious about that 08:52:34 like its predecessor RoFX, it doesn't start if it notices that the exe or dll has been tampered with 08:53:06 Its also a problem if we endorse and someone on the dev end "could" virus it and then we'd be held accountable as it is an "official" tool. 08:53:26 yea 08:53:47 the thing is 08:54:02 But non-persecution of players just minding their business with an interface mod doesn't have many problems until it starts displaying other players info (whom aren't in party.) 08:54:14 like a mod that says hes wearing stone armor or has x hp. 08:54:31 curious how well it handles woe settings. 08:54:41 there was never discussion of it before even on iW, because Blueness is afraid of retribution from the iRO GM Team and losing official fansite status over it 08:55:06 the fps drop is significant with it 08:55:11 inquire politely of blueness to bring it up with me. 08:55:16 ofcourse it doesn't display the hp of other players 08:55:31 does it display HP of the emp 08:55:41 as that is a strategic advantage 08:57:06 it displays only the known maxhp of it, it doesn't show loss though 08:57:09 since in WoE damage indication is disabled 08:57:27 so unless someone hacked their client to show WoE damage, it won't show it... 08:57:38 well the client still receives the info, hence why certain mods do. 08:58:03 also ofcourse it behaves the same as if it was a monster, meaning if a person shows up late to a contested emp that has been hit a few times previously before 08:58:14 the HP indicated will be inaccurate 08:58:25 well it knows how much damage you did to it 08:58:44 which makes it easier to guage how much/little to hit so you can do a late kick out break at the last moment. 08:59:02 yea, but for some reason it doesn't indicate the loss, it keeps showing 63000/63000 or how much the emp's hp is 08:59:17 even if you personalyl have hit it? 08:59:20 yep 08:59:30 also the combat log doesn't say how much hp the player himself does to it 08:59:36 interesting, so it is just reading the white and red numbers. 08:59:44 rather than packets to show those. 08:59:46 maybe! or it's disabled on purpose in siege 09:00:01 that is likely why jRO decided to allow it 09:01:08 Will have to look into it more. But for now I don't think anyone is going to be getting banned over it or autoIMO 09:01:23 alright 09:01:54 i'll try to catch bloo meanwhile, she seems to be awol at the time 09:02:06 life is busy Session Start: Tue Aug 05 08:51:33 2008 Session Ident: Heimdallr 08:51:35 hello Heimdallr 08:52:02 any thoughts on the RoCha!! issue since? 09:00:32 I thought we had discussed it to completion. 09:00:57 your last line was Will have to look into it more. But for now I don't think anyone is going to be getting banned over it or autoIMO 09:01:08 and that you'll eventually talk to Blueness about it 09:01:12 I don't think anyone will get banned for using an exp monitor 09:01:38 there isn't much more to be done with it. I can't get source code, so I can't even think of hosting it. 09:02:19 that's np, the non-persecution thing is the only thing that i wanted confirmed 09:08:24 will you still talk to blueness about it though? 09:08:30 i know you both are busy, but it'd help a lot 09:08:54 I know Blueness is busy especially after today, and lately my dance card is full. 09:09:15 I will talk whenever possible, but not sure what else needs dicussed on it. 09:10:23 well just a confirmation towards her, since she won't believe me about what you say after banning me for even mentioning the program's name 09:10:35 well not banning, but... yea 09:10:52 not sure if publicly saying it is OK is going to happen. 09:15:36 naw, just notifying Blueness of it so she can inform her mod staff is sufficient Session Close: Tue Aug 05 09:19:27 2008